KK: This is professor Katy Karlin. I’m here with Karole Graham, who played Big Mabel in The Learning Tree. And you’re actually the first person that we’ve talked to in connection with this project at Kansas State. We are establishing an online archive on Gordon Parks, in particular on the shooting of The Learning Tree, because we came into possession of some great photos that we’re in the process of digitizing and putting online. So, I’d like to talk to you first of all, how did you come to get the role in The Learning Tree?

KG:  Well, my agent at the time, Lillian Cumber, was saying, “Carol, can you swim? There’s a role coming up in a film and you just swim, or are you athletic?” And of course, being an actor, of course, I can do anything. I can climb Mt. Everest if need be to get a role. You know? So anyway, so I said, “No, no I can do it.” I was very athletic and what have you. She says, “Well, have you ever heard of Gordon Parks?” I said, “Yeah.” I said, “Isn’t he the world-class photographer? Used to do fashions and all?” She said, “Yeah that’s him. He’s doing a film about his life.” And she said he’d be staying at the Beverly Hills Hotel. And I said, “Oh?” And she says that this is completely above board, you don’t have to worry about anything being untoward or whatever. I said okay, all right. And uh, I met with him. So I met with him. We had dinner, we laughed, we talked. I knew so much about his background and all, and what-have-yous. “Young lady, you know more about me than I do myself.”  It was just wonderful. And we continued, we went back to his suite, and he called – he was so excited – he called the managing editor of Life magazine. He says, “I found Big Mabel.” [Laughter.]  He says, “I’m so excited. She’s perfect for what we need.”  So I said, gee-whiz, okay. So sure enough we shook hands, had a lovely evening, left, and Lil call me the next day and she says, “My dear, it looks like you’ve got it.” I said, “Incredible. I never had it go so easy. You know, that easily.” She says, “Well you got it. He says you have the height, you’ve got the complete physical thing that he wanted for Mabel and what have you.”  She says “He loves your personality, your animation.” And that’s how it got started. Now the funny thing is, so I arrive in Kansas, right?  Fort Scott. Knowing now that the camera adds a good ten pounds on you, I decided to be super svelte. Now, hmm, I took off about twelve pounds, because I think it was a period, about a good six weeks before we would start. So, I arrive at location, and so he began to start calling me my character’s name, Big Mabel. He said, “Big Mabel, what happened to you?’

KK: You not Big Mabel anymore. [Laughter.]

KG:  That’s right and he said, “Have you been sick?” I said, no, Gordon. He said, “I don’t want a fashion model.” He said, “That’s why I chose you, because you were voluptuous.” He says, “You got to eat, girl.” And it was the joke of the film that everybody knew that I, well you know, I just began to feel like I was some kind of brood hog.  I had to eat. I had to eat so I could gain some of this weight back, and that’s what I did.

KK: What were the relations like between Fort Scott and the company?

KG:  You know, from what all, from what I can recall, basically good. Basically good. I think there was some incident I heard of. And it’s sketchy with me, Katy, about one of the hotels where somebody, was there stink bomb?  You know, I don’t want to put that out there and not be accurate, but that’s just what I heard. So I don’t know if there was any veracity really to it or not. I don’t know. But I remember there was a favorite place we all used to love to go. I think it was the Red Barn.

KK: A restaurant?

KG:  Oh yes, it was just great, and we’d eat ourselves crazy and all that.  And we had a good time. I think we really had a good time. It was a fun time. And of course the people of Fort Scott were totally enthusiastic, because so many of them were used in the film, as extras, and so there was a great camaraderie, you know?

KK: That’s good. Let me ask you a couple questions about your role. Of course you and Newt have a moment. [Laughter.]  It seemed to me that must have been a very delicate scene.

KG:  It was very delicate, and I was very nervous about doing it, because that was shot on the back lot at Warner Brothers.

KK: Okay, so that was after the Fort Scott shoot or before?

KG:  Yeah, that was after. That’s right. Because you know a lot of things are not shot in sequence.

KK: Right, so you shot on location first and then shot at the studio?

KG:  Right, so they did interiors at Warner Brothers. And I remember that day, it was a rainy day, and my husband was down with the flu and very sick, and I was hoping that I wasn’t coming down, and it just weighed on me. Then I knew we had to do this shoot where there again I was going to be in water and hosed down and wet and what have you, and I had to reveal at least to here. And I was very nervous about it, and I told Gordon. You know, and everybody had gathered around, and I took him aside and said, “You know what, I’m really uptight about this. You know, to be honest.” He says, “Okay, I understand.” He said, “Why don’t I clear the set, and have nothing but a skeleton crew?” I said, “That’ll work.” And when he did that, well, it went very well, with Kyle.

KK: And he must’ve been nervous too.

KG:  We laughed and we teased and we would crack up about it, you know? Because I had known his mother, Nichelle [Nichols] for years so we were like a family and I would tease him and oh, he was just delightful. But that was so kind of Gordon, to understand my reticence, you know? And, immediately he said, [claps] “Clear this set.”

KK: That’s great. What was he like with the children? How was he with the child actors?

KG:  Wonderful. They all seemed to, yeah, uh – Kyle, with the boys – oh yeah. Gordon is so low key, Katy. You know, I doubt if he’s ever had a cross word with anybody when I think about it. So low key. So accommodating. But yet, you don’t walk on him too, you know? You didn’t walk over him. And I know that every scene, every – I know that he was reliving all of this. Just reliving the entire thing.

KK: It must’ve been strange for him, being in his home town.

KG:  Yeah, when you really think about that, you know.

KK: Did he betray any of that, like, nostalgia?

KG:  No, not to any of us. Isn’t that something? He told his daughter, Toni, and Gordon, the oldest, about how it was really just almost surreal seeing this [project] given life, and totally reenacting this entire thing. You know, so many – we lost so many of the cast it just breaks my heart. Like Kevin Hagen, Dana Elcar, these were wonderful actors. Oh the old gentleman that owned the farm, oh, wonderful character actor [George Mitchell]. My dear love and dear, dear friend, Joel [Fluellen], who played uncle Rob. Blind man. Joel was like a second father to me. And so many, Felix [Nelson] – the father, he’s gone, and Estelle [Evans, who played Newt’s mother, Sarah], and so many people. I found out from Jill [Warford] that the young man who played the delinquent kind, the troubled kid, Marcus, [Alex Clarke], he died about a year and a half ago.

KK: Really? Because he must have been young. He’s a teenager [in the movie].

KG:  That’s right. These people were considerable younger than me, you know? And it just – there’s a certain ache there that they’re gone, you know? But it was a wonderful thing, and um, when Gordon called me in 2006 and said, “They’re thinking of commemorating me in my hometown, Fort Scott.” He said, “Would you be up to going?” I said, “Well, why not?” He says, “You’re going to hear from a woman named Jill Warford, and she’ll give you all the specs.” And that’s how that started.

KK: Oh really?

KG:  Me, Kyle, let me see who else made it. Prissy, Saundra Sharp; couldn’t find Myra [Waters] that played Arcella. I understand now that she suffered a stroke in her life and is sort of iffy.  But let’s see, I think there were at least four of us that came down in 2006, the initial Gordon Parks Festival. Yeah, it was wonderful. It was wonderful.

KK: Let me ask you about the tornado scene.

KG:  Yes.

KK: And that was on location, correct?

KG:  That was on location. Absolutely.

KK: And we have pictures that we have in this archive of huge fans being set up.

KG:  Right, right.

KK: So how was that staged?

KG:  Let’s see it was out on a – and I know Gordon was looking for a certain type of sunset too, with all that rain.

KK: So you had to wait?

KG:  Right, I think we had to wait a few days with – we worked on part of it, the storm, with the fans and all and me running across a field and what have you. That was not a problem, but there was the sunset that he wanted that took time. The tornado scene was – you know I was – well what can I say? This is the first time I had done anything that physical, you know? And I had to do all this running, but yeah, I was young then so I didn’t mind. [Laughter.] What can I say? I was young. No problem. And um, and then as I say the main thing is that we did that interior of the seduction and I’ll say seduction. I’ll never forget – I’m in Los Angeles, it had to be about fifteen years ago, I’m at a Chevron station, getting some gas, and this young black man comes up to me and says, “I saw you in that movie, The Learning Tree.” He says, “That’s where you raped that –” [Laughter.] I raped him? I couldn’t believe it. And at a gas station, you know? But that – apparently, I don’t know, apparently that scene was quite provocative. It was for its day and time.

KK: Yeah, for the day it really was.

KG:  It was provocative, but I think that it was done tastefully. I’m not ashamed of it, you know?

KK: And you know in the novel, Big Mabel ends up a little differently. She gets killed.

KG:  That’s right, she gets killed.

KK: And I thought it was an interesting change. Because, you know, here’s an unusual case of an author adapting his own work for the film. That’s unusual. And that was one of the biggest changes, was Big Mabel lives in the movie.

KG:  That’s true. The last thing I think you see me, I’m in a whorehouse or the funeral, or something, right. That’s so true. On a note of levity we used to tease Gordon about the credits. We said, “Now here’s the credits, they’re going to be big and bold: Directed by Gordon Parks, Produced by Gordon Parks, Music by Gordon Parks, Sets by Gordon Parks.” And I said, “All of us will have tiny little –” [Laughter.]  He used to die laughing. I said, “I’m telling the truth now, aren’t I, Gordon?’

KK: It seems like there was a lot of camaraderie.

KG:  Oh, there was a lot of camaraderie and a lot of fun. Yeah, a lot. Um, like I said, working on his set was a walk in the park. We had a great crew. We had [cinematographer] Burnett Guffey who was an Academy Award winner, and he was just a love. Everybody was – and they were all solidly behind Gordon, too. Which was so good.

KK: Some of these were like old hands, right? And working with their first African-American director.

KG:  That’s right, first African-American director.

KK: But you didn’t feel any sense of disrespect towards him?

KG:  Not in the slightest. I can honestly say that. Not in the slightest. And I never heard Gordon complain to Gordon Jr. or to his daughter about there being anything [bad].

KK: How about the studio? Do you know what his relationship was with them?

KG:  The relationship with the studio was generally – oh, I remember he talked about, I’ve forgotten his first name, but his last name was Hyman. Oh shoot. I used to know, because it was Seven Arts, then, that owned the studio. Kenny, Kenny Hyman. And Kenny Hyman was so solidly behind Gordon, and what happened is that John Cassavetes had introduced Gordon to Kenny Hyman, and that’s how the project got launched.

KK: Really? I had no idea.

KG: Isn’t that something?  John Cassavetes.

KK: So they were friends?

KG:  They were friends. And Hyman was solid behind him. There was, oh, what was that young – he had been a child star. The names, I can see these faces but not the names.

KK: Jackie Cooper?

KG:  Not him. Oh, no, no, no, no, I’d know him.

KK: But somebody else who became an executive?

KG:  Yes, yes. And he was on – he was with the crew, and I’m trying to remember – was he an executive? He might’ve been an executive producer. [Producer Jimmy Lydon.]  And then there was also – oh I could see him too. He had done a series called “Jake and the Fat Man.”

KK: I remember that.

KG:  Big guy.

KK: Conrad.

KG:  Yeah, Conrad.

KK: William Conrad.

KG:  William Conrad had not wanted me.

KK: Oh really?

KG:  No. Isn’t that interesting?

KK: Was he a producer on the show?

KG:  I guess he was a producer – executive producer on it. And, um, Jimmy Lydon. James Lydon, that’s the name. See, I associate the two. And they were sort of cohorts, and, uh, I found out later through Gordon Jr. – he says, “You know, they didn’t want you.” I said, “Really? Your Dad did.” He said, “Yeah, I know, but they didn’t want you.” And I remember Conrad was the only person at Warner Brothers that had been somewhat a thorn in Gordon’s side. But he was uh –

KK: But Gordon Parks got his way?

KG: Oh yeah. Oh yeah, because Gordon Jr. told me – he says, “You know, Conrad’s a problem.” I said, “oh really?” He didn’t want me either. Whatever.

KK: Did he spend a lot of time with the actors, with you, preparing your role, working on your motivation, or was he more of a director who was just letting you do your thing?

KG:  No, he would let you do your own thing. I noticed that because I asked if he – what he thought he wanted to see from Big Mabel. I’d already had my own characterization going. And he says, “You know, Carol, I see when you’re on the witness stand, I’m envisioning you twisting in your chair, with a being of uneasy,” and what have you. And I thought, that’s just the opposite of what I’m going to do. I just let him give me what he thought, and I did what I wanted to do, and it worked. And I went to him later, and I said, “How did it work?” He said, “What you did was right on.” Yeah. He wanted me twisting and turning, and I thought, mm-mmm, no.

KK: No, because she wouldn’t have been nervous.

KG: No, no. No. This woman was – hey. You know? This woman had a lot of moxie and what have you. She would’ve been sitting there, you know? I feel that he got good performances out of everybody.

KK: Yeah, and the kids are great, I think.

KG: Oh, the kids were great, just great, and he enjoyed them too. They felt very comfortable with Gordon also. And I’m trying to think of any other interesting anecdotes, Katy.

KK: How about the premiere? Can you tell me about the movie opening?

KG: Oh yes. I didn’t go to the one in New York, but I did – apparently PR decided since I was a sexual factor in this, that I should go – I did my hometown of Cleveland, and I also did Detroit and Chicago. They sent me on a PA, you know, with that. They were fun, you know? Those were the days when everything was so first class. Everything was first class, you know? My God, when you flew first class on United – nothing like the way it is now, you know? Um, so, I mean, it was just delightful and I got a chance to spend some time in my hometown of Cleveland, and with my old friends, and they threw a luncheon for me, and all. I think one of the things – one of the greatest compliments I got was – they said, “Carol, you haven’t changed a bit. You’re as crazy as ever.” [Laughter.]

KK: Was it – how big of a deal was it when it opened? I mean this is, you know, we look back and it was the first –

KG: Yes it was, and you know let me tell you this, Katy. I said, “My God, I’m in USSR, the magazine USSR, I was in Time, I was in Newsweek, um, The Hollywood Reporter, you know? All that – and I think about – and of course that incredible thing in Life magazine, where I’m running, did you ever – it’s out there [in the Gordon Parks Museum].

KK: Oh, okay.

KG: Yeah, it’s out there. In fact I gave it to Jill. Yeah, because I kept it forever.

KK: It’s in the museum?

KG: It’s in the museum, and it’s Gordon, of course being with Life – they gave about a four-page, wonderful spread. And there I – I’ll never forget – I’m standing in what was then Sav-On Drug store in the height of flu season in November, and I told you about this poor husband of mine that was about to expire from flu, and I had gotten his medication, and I’m standing, and there was a new Life magazine with Richard Nixon on it – 1968, he had won – and I open the magazine and right there is me running across a field with the tornado scene. I died laughing. I know people wondered –

KK: You and Nixon, together forever.

KG: Me and Nixon. Are you ready?  Yeah. And I laughed so I know people in line thought this is a real crackpot, this woman. But I said – I thought, I never thought I’d see myself in Life magazine. I thought I never would, you know? So, I mean it was very heady.

KK: Yeah, I bet. So can you tell – tell me a little bit about your life after – in the years since –

KG: Okay, you know, we know the business. You’re as good as your last job. We know that, and thank God I never had any illusions of being a superstar, none of that. I wanted to be a working actor. I would’ve been very contented with that, you know? With me, unfortunately after that, I was always offered roles of prostitutes, loose women, and I got type casting, which I hated. But then I caught a break with Redd Foxx, and was able to do comedy when he had his comedy show, which I loved, which got me other work because they saw that I could do it. I’d go into a casting, and they’d say, “Oh she looks like a fashion model.” And I said, “Well let me read.” And when I finished reading, they would be on the floor. And I also – from that another comedy role – I did “The Parkers,” where I played the role of crazy Aunt Clara, which was delightful. And then things – you know what, you got to really, really work at it, Katy, and I lost the zest, to be very truthful. I lost that zest around the late 90s, and I said, “I’m going to go on honorary withdrawal and just do something else.” And after that – I had had a very good background in education. I didn’t finish at UCLA, but I had a couple years, and by that time, the No Child Left Behind measure had come through, which, you know, was the alliance between George Bush and Ted Kennedy. And I know it was much maligned, and a lot of people hear No Child Left Behind and they cringe, but I must say, myself personally, I’ve experienced a lot of success with my students. So I got into that, because I went into language arts, and – I’m sure you know the basis of it, so I had to bring up – the schools that are floundering and failing – bring them up to national average, which is a yeoman’s task in California. You know, because of our immigrant population, it’s very difficult, very challenging, but I love every moment of it.

KK: So you’re teaching in schools now?

KG: Yeah.

KK: What grades do you teach?

KG: I go from the second through the eighth.

KK: That’s wonderful.

KG: Yeah, and I love it. I love the kids. I’m able to use my acting. They die laughing when I go into character. One of my little fourth graders, Stephanie Salazar, says, “Oh, miss Karole, you make me laugh all the time.” I love that. I love that. And I think another thing too, Katy, that just oh man, I felt feel good, was – I was at the library because you know, you can choose between – whatever the parent wants, the home or the library – and the Salazars for Stephanie chose the library. It was a Saturday.  And a lady was sitting in front of me, and – a Caucasian lady – and she turned from time to time and smiled – we were working, Stephanie and I. Stephanie’s dad came to pick her up, and the lady turned to me and said, “Are you a teacher?” I said, “No, no. I am not a licensed teacher. I’m a tutor.” She said, “Well, you have a gift.” I was just overwhelmed. She said, “I listened to you. I saw the way you were able to get into that kid’s head, and be there with her, and how you got the best out of her.” It was like ten million dollars to me, Katy. I walked on air after that. She said she had taught for thirty years and the she decided to go into constitutional law, that’s what she was studying. But to get that from a thirty-year veteran teacher, wow.

KK: Well that’s wonderful. I’m sure your kids love you.

KG: Well, you know what, I’m so proud, I have to say I’m one of the most requested in our – you know, they have what they call providers, they have fifty-two providers for the No Child, and the one that I’m in, [they] told me, she says, “Karole, you know you’re one of the most requested. They’re always saying, “Is Miss Graham available?” Makes me feel good. I’m not getting rich. You know, I’m not getting rich, but I love what I do. If I couldn’t be into acting, I love what I’m doing.

KK: Well thank you so much for talking to me. One last question, about your name, because your name is Karole Graham –

KG: That’s my legal name.

KK: That’s your legal name, your professional name was different.

KG: Lamond. Right, I used my husband’s middle name at that time.

KK: Oh, what was your given name? What were you born as?

KG: When I tell you, you’re going to die laughing. Carol Shirley Bugg. B-u-g-g.

KK: I can see why you changed it.  [Laughter.]

KG: First man that came along, yes I’ll marry you.

KK: Thank you so much.